Dr. Sunday Ola Makinde, is the firebrand Methodist bishop of Abuja until recently when he was posted to Lagos to assume the office of the archbishop. Many people who dread his guts find it difficult to stand him, but there is an army of Nigerians that respect him a lot. Among them are the Special Adviser to President Olusegun Obasanjo on Political Matters, Professor Jerry Gana, who expressed his unhappiness recently over Makinde’s posting to Lagos.
In this interview in his new office in Lagos, the fearless archbishop took a cursory look at the state of the Nigerian nation, and said we must shape up now to avoid a violent revolution. He said the ruling party, PDP has failed the nation even as he advised retired General Ibrahim Babangida, who is said to be nursing the ambition to contest the 2007 presidential elections, to first reconcile with God and the people of Nigeria over June 12. On immoral dressing in the society and complete breakdown of moral values, he would rather blame parents than the Church. Excerpts.
ARE you satisfied with five years of democracy in
Nigeria?
I will say yes because this nation has been battered for many decades and then what they have battered for many years can never be revampered within this short space of time. So, we have fared well, don’t mind pockets of political riots, civil unrest, ethnic tension and many more. These must accompany democracy and I know we will soon overcome these teething problems. I know the economy is bad, no doubt about that, people are suffering, but after the tunnel there will be light.
Do you subscribe to calls for a sovereign national conference?
I am one of the apostles of national conference. Let me tell you, here and now as a prophecy, until we get down to discuss our problems, there can be no peace in Nigeria. I am certain about that, because we have to sit down and fashion a viable basis to move the nation forward. We have so many nationalities in Nigeria which they amalgamated in 1914 without any careful thought. We just have to sit down and find out on what terms we are going to live together in peace.
The Sharia issue is there. It is a time-bomb. So many innocent souls have died because of Sharia. Take a look at the tension over settlers/indigene syndrome and people taking contract jobs in their own nation which never happen in Europe or in America.
You cannot even practise your religion where you have it, you cannot build a place of worship where you have it and we say we are one Nigeria. Look at a situation where an ethnic group will say we are going to have political domination over you.
I read in the papers where somebody said we conceded power to the South...and whereas the Igboman cannot say I want to rule and we are talking of a zoning formula. What type of nonsense is that? It is an insult to all of us in the South. Why should they concede power to us?
Everybody should be eligible. And they have been ruling this country over many years. And a situation where the PDP says it has zoned the thing to the North...we want others to come and form their own political parties so that we don’t run into a one-party state. So, national conference is a must, for us to move forward. We just have to sit down and dialogue. As they say; to jaw jaw is better than to war war. If we had done this before the Nigeria Civil War, it would have been better for us.
After talking, we will know the kind of constitution we will need for the nation. I am not happy with ethnic marginalisation in the country. The people in the South South are saying we produce the wealth of the nation and we have nothing to show for it. Let us call them to a round table conference and know their position so as to fashion a better arrangement for our living together.
We are not calling for anything short of dialogue because how can I live in Nigeria and cannot practise my religion without let because some people say they respect Sharia and not the nation’s laws. Where do you have that? No ecclesiastical law can override the laws of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. Since we have a multi-religious society, no religious law can override the nation’s laws.
Prof. Wole Soyinka recently called on Gen. Babangida to apologise to the nation for annulling June 12 Presidential elections. What’s your reaction?
My position is that Babangida is a great joker. He is a
joker of the century. He should go and sit and count the number of innocent souls that died as a result of June 12 annulment in this country and the number of others that went into exile. So, if he wants to come back, he has to make penance for that.
He should fear God. Let him go and see the number of people who died while running away to the East. So he wants to sweep that under the carpet. Anybody who thinks that he can buy Nigerian voters and will enjoy himself should remember Abacha.
Many lives were lost and what is he doing about it? And they say he is coming back. We are waiting for him and many people are ready to use money, but don’t let me deceive you, when they get there without proper repentance and penance, they will never enjoy it because God is not happy with us in this country.
We have shed innocent blood and this people are coming again. Power belongs to God and it will be better for him to reconcile with God in prayer and in fasting before coming to reconcile with Nigerians. And all those people who are campaigning for him, if they are doing so for financial gains, they will not enjoy the gains because they will be placing curses on themselves and forebears.
How do you react to the policy of N25bn recapitilisation for banks
My position is clear: The policy will strengthen our economy and investors will have rest of mind. But my only counsel is that they should go about it with human face. The banks are so many, how are they going to raise N25 billion and even if they are able to raise it, they may be forced to cut down their workforce and many people will be thrown into the overburdened labour market.
Encouraging employment
That is what I am afraid of, because it will create unemployment for some people. We should be promoting policies that will encourage employment, rather than unemployment in the society. That’s my fear, though I know that everything that has a merit has a demerit. Which is why I will suggest a reduction of the amount, but I know there is need to strengthen our banks. Again, the policy may encourage money laundering because the banks want to raise money if you go there and deposit N500 million today, nobody will ask you the source of the money. They will just accept it to strengthen their base. So the advantages of the policy is much more than the weakness of it.
What has the Church done to ameliorate the sufferings of victims of recent ethno-religious crisis in parts of the North?
We go there and send relief materials to them and show solidarity with them in prayers and in fasting. It is very unfortunate that we are mixing religion with politics. Those people creating the tensions are not religious leaders.
They are fanatical adherents of politics and religion and they know that if they weave the problem with religion it will catch fire. Look at the man who introduced Sharia, he is a politician. He just used it to strengthen his political base, but anything political will die. Sharia never caused any problem in Nigeria before, even during the time of Sardauna of Sokoto. You cannot be holier than Pope. Sir Tafawa Balewa, Obafemi Awolowo and the politicians of their ilk didn’t mix religion with politics.
In fact, Awolowo was the first political leader to introduce pilgrims welfare board and he introduced it for Muslims in the West. But the man in Zamfara believed that Sharia can oil his political base, but after his second term now, it will be difficult for him to hold any federal position or to become president in this country.
That was what cost Gen. Muhammadu Buhari the presidency last year when he said only Muslims would vote for him. That is why he failed. If Buhari and Babangida contest today, because the devil you know is better than the angel you don’t know and if IBB should make peace with God, people will prefer him. Because Buhari is a man who mixes religion with politics. You don’t know that people can die because of religion, and people can die of their politics but you don’t mix the two together.
If Buhari realises his ambition, he will declare Nigeria an Islamic state and thereby exclude the North from the nation. Who is he to come and declare West, East and South South as Islamic states? That is why I say that any man who votes for Buhari and the man at Zamfara at any national election is deceiving himself because these men are religious fundamentalist.
In light of the recent introduction of dress code at the University of Lagos, shouldn’t the Church be blamed for immoral dressings in the nation?
If you read your Bible and Qur’an very well, you will find that there is morality. We teach it, preach and read it but they decide to follow the devil and don’t let me deceive you, immorality is not in the dress, it is in the heart. We know what they wear to the church. The university is not the place.
These students dress up before they go for lectures. What are we doing? We have neglected our parental duties. Let parents watch their children who dress up in the homes before going to the universities. They receive monies from their parents before they go to the universities. Look, we have all failed in our parental duties in this country—both Christians and Muslims. You can’t blame the Church because they dress from the homes before they come to the church or the mosque or wherever they go to.
As parents, what do we do? If Nigeria is going to be a place worth living in, we must cleanse our homes and re-introduce long held African traditional values. So, you can’t blame the church on something that is unethical. We only see these children, probably only four or five times in a month at church meetings.
People say charity begins at home. Let us start this cleansing from our homes—armed robbers come from homes, religious bigots come from homes. What are we doing about our homes. We keep blaming Obasanjo for every evil in the society. Obasanjo hasn’t stolen one kobo in this country. When they wanted to impeach him, they looked round and they couldn’t pin anything to him. He comes from a home. Let us go and cleanse our homes, let all politicians be like that.
They are products of one home or the other and they are products of the church. We have started it in the church because people have started to ask questions about the source of people’s wealth in the church and that’s a way to cleanse the society. Before we cleanse the society, we must first cleanse our homes. Our homes are dirty.
Some of these students are products of broken homes and it is untidy. They go to church to amass wealth as a result of commercialisation of churches here and there—the church where people preach prosperity without addressing immorality. I support Unilag for their bold step, but it will only reduce it, but we need to change our attitude morally, politically, socially, financially and otherwise.
And I want to appeal to the Federal Government to return God to our educational institutions. That is what is lacking. They took away the schools from us in 1976 and that is why the devil has taken over. We have just started.
Thank God that Governors Tinubu and Akume have returned some of the schools that were taken over by government to the voluntary agencies. That is the only thing. Let us return God back to the system because when we were young, you dare not dress like that to school.
We were taught how to dress even from primary school and if you don’t dress well, they would beat and send you back home to dress properly. Today, even teachers are dressing immorally to school. In those days, no teacher would sleep with his pupils. Let the government be bold enough---they caused the problem---to order the teaching of religious education in primary and secondary schools. They should teach both Islamic and Christian education even in tertiary institutions. If they do that, we will have a better society.
Leaders of the inter-religious organisation have recommended to the president that government should bring back God to the educational system so that we can have a better society. All the armed robbers you are seeing are products of government takeover of schools. They say education without morality is like a cup of tea without sugar and we have just started. Unless we quickly reverse ourselves by bringing God back to our educational system.
Is proliferation of churches helping this country?
Proliferation of churches is a blessing and it is biblical because Jesus said; go evangelise the entire world even into the end of the age. But our worry is when you commercialise the church. When you don’t plough back what you get... and that is why people are calling for the taxation of the church.
The church in Nigeria will never agree. The church is the mother of democracy in Nigeria because the product of the church brought democracy to Nigeria. We will not agree to that, but by their fruits ye shall know them.
If you put part of what you get to social services — establish schools, hospitals, leper colonies, provide potable water — there will be no problem. That is what we used to do. When you get money from people and you live an affluent life while the people wallow in poverty, there is bound to be problem.
People are using religion to rape people and that is why we say by their fruits you shall know them. You know the authentic churches and those who are commercialising churches. So you can’t generalise. I have said miracles is not to be advertised or publicised. God is doing it and not man. Jesus Christ needs no publicity.
Miracles are happening in all the churches even in the rooms of people and everyday. Jesus healed people and He would say tell nobody.
Publicising miracles
We are discouraging them not to publicise miracles — wherever you are — without publicising miracles, people will still come there for healing and for wonders.
Are you satisfied with Obasanjo’s leadership because there is so much hunger in the land?
I will deceive myself if I say there is no poverty in the land. There is poverty, hunger, unemployment, lack of security, but Obasanjo may be suffering from penalty for leadership. You cannot aggregate all these problems and keep them at the feet of one individual when we have different agencies. If police take bribe on the street, we say Obasanjo. If there is no food because we have all left farming, it is Obasanjo. Did he stop us from going to the farm? We are blessed with abundance of farm crops.
One head of state was reported to have said, “if I fail, my advisers have failed.”
Let papa get honest advisers and let him listen to them. That is my candid advice to him. He should listen to God. If a leader listens to God and has honest advisers... Obasanjo as a person is good, but he cannot oversee everything.
That is why he has ministers. Are people not advising him on petroleum price increase? They feed him with wrong information. I am advising him to listen to God more than sycophants. Any person who has advised him to increase the price of petroleum has derailed because that increase is anti-people, especially kerosene which people in the nation’s villages use and they say we should not deforest.
To me, PDP as a party has failed in the provision of social amenities to its people. I score the party very low. It is a callous party, because it is insensitive to the plight of suffering Nigerians. They are fighting themselves in Anambra, Abia and Oyo. It is an undisciplined party. PDP cannot take us to the promised land. Most of the people who served under Abacha are there. Callous people.
Look at the killings in PDP. The killing of Bola Ige — still unresolved.
No water, no electricity, you can’t ride your car, no food, no security. There is chaos everywhere. PDP has failed even where they are controlling. The other day, they wanted to impeach themselves. It is a party divided against itself.
All Nigerians should pray that God should sent a man after His own heart. People are blaming Obasanjo... he has party leaders, political advisers. Do they advise him in fear of God? Don’t go to Aso Rock and tell tales. Tell them Nigerians are suffering. Unemployment is in the land. Seventy per cent of robbers are graduates. If there is going to be a revolution it will be a very bloody one. There cannot be a military cou,p, there may be a serious revolution, if we are not careful the way we are going.
There are parents with four or more unemployed graduates and there are also cases of the killings of innocent people by the police. Where are we going? We can’t blame Mr. President for everything. We are all guilty. Let us be realistic because we don’t tell the truth.
Look at how legislators fight over money in Abuja. Take a look at the proposed anti-Labour Law and how some people are engineering Mr. President and he would do it because some people will be favoured.
National Assembly members are not helping matters. Don’t they have constituencies? Are they not seeing people suffering there? Have they done anything about the fuel price hike?
We deal more with grassroots people than the politicians because we minister to their spiritual needs because there is suffering in the land. We know there is insecurity in the land and PDP has not been able to overcome it because they are deceiving Mr. President that all is well.
We religious leaders should be able to say: Thus says the Lord; that is our duty and we are saying emphatically that all is not well with Nigeria. We need to return to God. It is collective failure and there is no strong opposition apart from the students unions and a few religious leaders. When they give them money, they share it and that settles that.
We should all pray for Nigeria. We criticise a lot. All of us must pray for Nigeria. We have no other country. I am over 60 and I cannot be a refugee anywhere. That is why I am concerned about the problems of this country — spiritually and practically.
I know that the press men in Nigeria are very courageous. They are doing good job, but we must all rise up and rebuild this country.
