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Obasanjo, George liberated Yoruba from Afenifere �Ogunlewe
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Chief Adeseye Ogunlewe, Minister of Works and stalwart of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) knows that his performance
as minister would affect the future electoral fortunes of his party nationwide. The former Senator from Lagos State
granted Snr. Political Editor, SIMON IBE, an interview recently in which he said as much and lots more. Excerpts:
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What is the state of the PDP in Lagos State?
We are giving glory to God because we have so many people joining the party. There is massive decamping from other
parties and it is unimaginable. We had some people who believe that they are not part of the main structure of
Lagos PDP but that was in the past. They believe that we should still continue in something that has no place in
the constitution of the party which is what brought about the problems we had in the past. The constitution of
the party is clear, there is the state executive, there is the state working committee, there is the LGA executive,
there is the ward executive and there is the state caucus.
Those are the ones recognised under the constitution. Those that are not part of these structures are the ones
complaining.
These structures hold meetings at least twice a month. I am not part of the structures, I don�t attend their meetings
and I am not complaining. The only opportunity I have is at the expanded state caucus and the elders meeting which
is open to everybody and is held every last Sunday of the month.
Probably, what they want is for us to have another meeting, to do what? That is not part of the constitution. So,
that is the only problem. My self, I cannot attend the state exco meetings. I cannot attend the state working committee
meetings. I am not a member under the constitution of the party.
So, if they hold their meetings, how can I complain that they didn�t call me? They can not call me because I am
not part of them.
What about the elders meeting?
That is the one we hold last Sunday of each month and everybody is invited. It is open.
So, nobody is being marginalised in the state chapter of the party?
Probably when they wanted to conduct the primary for 2001, they made a mistake by creating what they called arrow-heads
and there were 13 of them and they shared the posts. Probably they believed that this arrow-head system is going
to conform with the constitution of the party. I don�t believe in that type of arrangement that doesn�t conform
with the constitution of the party and that will never happen.
What about the allegation that the crisis has something to do with the 2007 governorship and presidential elections?
I cannot rule it out at all but it is normal in any political situation. But that should not affect the structure
of the party. You can have your own supporters. You can support any one you want for the governorship or the presidential
election but that doesn�t mean that you should not conform with the structure of the party.
Come and participate within the structure of the party, go back to your home and do whatever you want to do in
respect of whether you have ambition to be governor or want to support a certain presidential candidate. But the
president has warned us to wait till 2006. These people are impatient. How do we work if we continue to be distracted
in this manner? What do we show the people that we have done if throughout the four years we talk about who is
going to be the next president or governor? Let us get to the bridge before we cross it. It is not every day we
hold elections, so why are they in a hurry?
Does that account for why you were quoted recently as saying that you are not interested in the race for the governorship
of Lagos State?
I can never be. I am a minister. How can a minister be in the race for the governorship? It is indecent and it
is totally uncalled for. You have been selected out of how many people to become a minister, all you think about
is what you are going to become in 2007, when the roads are bad? It is unethical. I can not imagine some people
saying that.
One, I am to make sure that I support the party at the state level. Second, I am to make sure that the PDP wins
elections in all the states of the federation because it is what I do at the state level that will show - case
the party. I am not representing Lagos State alone. I am a nationalist, I am a show - case for the entire nation.
Every state must see what I am doing, they must be appreciative of it, they must also be comfortable because at
the end of the day, when they are campaigning in those states, it is what I have done that they will use to campaign
against other parties. So, how can I be anticipating something that is in 2007 instead of addressing the task at
hand? Honestly, come rain, come sun, I can never contest, never, what for? I don�t need it.
But you will ensure that your party wins?
Yes, the PDP will win, there is no doubt about it, by the grace of God but we must work hard because our people
appreciate good work. We must not relent in our efforts, we must not tell lies, we must tell the people what we
can do and do them. We must make them comfortable. Once they are comfortable, they will rely on the party.
You said that the work you have done will show-case the party. One year plus into your tenure, what is your score
card?
Well, it depends. If you are talking about maintenance, we have recorded about 70 per cent. But if you are talking
about capital projects, we have to inject more money into capital projects and restrict the number of projects.
The way we are going, we can never get any where. Here, we are embarking on close to 98 projects at the same time
with limited resources. When you spread the amount of money to 98 projects, we will never get any where. But where
we identify with few and put more money and plan well, between now and 2007, we will have something to cheer about.
Does the 2005 budget proposal address this your thinking?
Of course, I was the one that divided the money into six, N10.6 billion per zone. And I told the members of the
National Assembly to make sure they identify certain projects in their zones and put enough money there so that
they can have something to show. But if they spread it again too thin, it won�t be my fault because we will never
deliver anything.
The argument is that it is the implementation of the budget that is the problem?
No, that was in the past. You can not believe that we have 85 per cent compliance in the ministry of works. Everything
that was in the budget was released to us within six months.
There is the argument that due process has been a problem in the implementation of the 2004 budget?
No, it is the best thing that has ever happened to our country. It introduced checks and balances. Before, the
minister was the ultimate. But this is not the best for the system. If you have a project and you are the one that
is approving the money it is wise to have another organisation that can cross-check what you are doing . If you
want to pay, you pass the certificate to somebody that will assess the work done, somebody who would go to the
site, check it and say okay pay. Unlike before, when everything starts and ends with the minister. But now the
government said there must be due process. We must pass everything to them and they will assess before giving certificates
to pay. It is checks and balances and it is good for democracy.
Is it not constituting a bottleneck?
No, it is when you refuse to follow due process that bottleneck arises. This thing is not new.
It is just for civil servants to comply. They are complaining to try to frustrate what is good for transparency.
They said before you start any project, design, advertise so that there will be competition. Don�t just give it
to your brothers or friends. Let every Nigerian know that you are going to embark on a project. Advertise it, everyone
that is interested should bid. After the bidding just assemble the bids and when you are opening the tenders, let
everybody that participated be present. At the end, you call who has won. Then you pass it on to Due process to
cross-check the competence of the prospective contractor. It is not the business of the civil servant any more
to determine the winner of a contract. That is why they are making noise.
You were a senator and now on the side of the Executive, how has this impacted on you?
Of course, not only that, I grew up in the system. I had been a civil servant all my life. That one is even more
advantageous for one than even being in the senate or being a minister because I am part and parcel of the civil
service. That is my constituency. I know what they can do and what they can not do. When you see people complaining
about a process, you know that the process is good.
In the Nigerian context?
That is the correct thing to do.
There must be checks and balances. The Minister must not be everything. I pray and wish it will continue because
I know it is the best thing that has ever happened to our system.
As a former legislator, what is your assessment of the present legislature?
It is more experienced. A one year old child can not be better than a five year old child. When we were there,
what we did in year one was not what we did in year four. Now, they are in year five. By the time it gets to year
ten, it will be graduating. So it is a different setting from the beginning to now. They are far more reasonable
than we were. We were pro-active. We did most things we shouldn�t have done because of lack of experience and precedence.
There have been a lot of criticism against the presidency concerning the fuel price increase issue. What is your
true reading of what is going on ?
It is the civil servants that are causing the problem, and we must identify them. Uptil now no one knows exactly
the level of subsidy. Uptil now who knows who is paying the subsidy? Some people are just benefiting from the system
and they are the ones causing problem. I have told labour people, sit down with government, let us have the statistics,
how much does it cost us to import fuel? If we know that, then what is the back-up? Or they should take a licence
as Labour and import their own fuel and sell at N30. But you see, people that are enjoying the subsidy which is
N350 million every day are the ones funding the crisis.
These people will take about 300 tankers across the border everyday because fuel is more expensvie across the border.
This is number one, Number two, I don�t think it is the function of the Federal Government to determine the cost
of fuel. It doesn�t happen anywhere in the world. What is the business of the Federal Government in it? Who determines
the prices of other commodities? It is the economic factors that determine prices. The price of petroleum products
can not be the same in Sokoto and Lagos. This doesn�t make any economic sense. So, who is advocating this uniformity
of prices? Something that has never happened in the past 30 years. If you go to Sokoto, Kebbi or Borno, there is
no fixed price, it is only in Lagos, Ibadan and Abuja that you can determine the price of fuel.
It is only in Nigeria that we say this is what must happen all over the federation. There is no economic principle
that will support that. Ultimately, we must restructure our economy. There is no substitute for it. What happens
in one state should not determine what happens in another state. The number of litres of petrol you sell in Lagos
is not the same with Maiduguri. It is re-structuring that we must do and this is the crux of the matter.
What about the argument of bringing back to life our refineries?
If you don�t allow me to determine the price on my own, I will burn your refineres so that I can be importing and
making N250 million everyday. Why should I allow your refineries to work? I will not. They are the ones destroying
the refineries, it is a cartel and they don�t love this country. Unless something is done, just like GSM. Before,
it was just NITEL alone, and for 35 years, we had only 400,000 lines, but in one year, we had about 5 million lines,
how can you compare the two? Who determines the amount you buy your sim card or the handset you buy? You buy the
one you like. If it had been restricted, we would have found ourselves in a monopoly. The NLC should sit down with
government and say give us our own licence, we will import our own petrol and sell at our own price. Or we want
to build a refinery so that our people can enjoy. If you are saying that the Federal Government should subsidise
petrol, what about the states and local governments? Why can�t they use their own allocations to subsidise the
price of fuel in their respective states?
That is why they can�t falk. Everybody is saying that Obasanjo is the problem but when they want to share they
money, they wouldn�t say, Obasanjo, take five percent to subsidise petrol. They will say you must give us our own
share because, that is the decision of the Supreme Court. Who will now pay for the subsidy?
This deregulation and liberalisation that you are talking about, some people are suggesting that it will be better
discussed at a national conference where everything else including the deregulation of the polity will be discussed?
This is an option which could have been relevant during the military era. Now, we have the constitution which is
supreme. So, my own idea is for us to see what we can do to ammend the constitution. Since there is a procedure
for the ammendment of the constitution, all of us should sit down and iron it out. You can not have two separate
mandates. Where will the national conference derive its authority from?
You have worked closely with President Obasanjo. Is he misunderstood?
It is the other tiers of government that have refused to work. We have been used to the military system and we
are used to attacking only the head.
We don�t remember that there are three tiers of government, the federal, state and local government, we believe
that we are still living in the past. That it is either the Babangida, Abacha or Buhari era which were one-line
command structures. But now, when we voted, we didnt vote Obasanjo alone. And nobody has ever asked questions like
what is the chairman of my local government doing with the money he is collecting?
It affects everybody, you see a Bishop that will go on the pulpit shouting, Obasanjo put food on the tables of
the masses. And I laugh, who has the land to produce the food? The local government, who has been given the money
to produce the food? The state and local governments. We say there is poverty in the nation and that we have a
high level of illiteracy.
The Federal government has nothing to do with it. Take the example of the funding of primary education, the state
governments argued that the federal government has no right deducting salaries of primary school teachers at source
and they won. And it is clear under our constitution that it is the duty of the state and local governments to
fund primary education and this is why allocation on the basis of equality of local governments is being given
to them. This is being done so that they can take care of the people but nobody is asking questions. The same thing
happens in the area of primary health care, rural electrification and rural roads. The constitution has already
defined authorities and responsibilities and has given the Revenue Mobilization, Allocation and Fiscal Commission
the authority to determine how to share money according to the responsibilities of each tier of government but
everybody is looking at Obasanjo.
What is you assessment of the performance of the states and local governments?
We have not seen anything from the local governments yet. The governors in some cases are trying, but they need
to do more, particularly with respect to the amount of money they are collecting. But it is a growing democracy,
we should not be in a hurry. We compare our own democracy with so many democracies that have been around for 200
years. They suffered the same thing we are going through now when they were younger but some people will ask whether
we have to wait for life. The fact is that the ground we lost due to military rule, we have to pay for it. We have
lost a period that could have been part of our growth and it is as if we are beginning again. So, people should
be patient, we have the best country in the world, the greatest combination of people. Of every five black people
in Africa, four are Nigerians. There is no country like ours.
Go to any other neighbouring country and see what is happening there. You cannot compare them with our country.
This is a great country that every body is envious of and the envy will continue.
Do you believe the success of the PDP in the South West zone is for real or a fluke? Will it endure?
There is no substitute for the PDP in the South West. The South West zone is the most difficult place to govern.
You can�t deceive them. People from the west are highly critical. But there are two or three states we have to
work harder to keep. As a minister, I have to focus more on these states so that it will be easy for us to win
elections in these states. We won�t take them for granted. They are lucky they have a minister they can rely on.
So I will do my best for them.
Where do you think Afenifere, the pan Yoruba group, is heading to?
They are god fathers of injustice and I said so in 1999/2000 that God does not like injustice. Stop doing injustice,
it will catch up with you. If you sit down and recount the level of injustice they have done, even from Awolowo�s
period, when they will tell Awolowo what will never happen, when they will tell him, he has won everywhere in the
North, knowing full well that they have not done enough for the man to win. Knowing full well that to pick a running
mate from the South in 1979 will do this country no good, but they were myopic, it was deliberate. Imagine not
allowing Chief Awolowo, a great democrat, to expand his horizon across the Niger when he was aspiring to be the
president of this country.
When there was the struggle for democracy, they fought, when it was time for us to share, they went into opposition.
It is an irony of history, that is what they gave to the Yoruba people until Obasanjo and Olabode George liberated
the Yoruba people from this shackle of people that can not see beyond their noses. They so believe in injustice,
you can not believe it. G34 who formed it, it was formed by the Yoruba people, Bola Ige was a staunch member. And
when the group went to Abuja, he led the delegation. Because of his ambition, he drafted the constitution of G34
and the manifesto of the PDP. He said he saw in the PDP then people that the Yoruba should not sit down with. He
took them to the ANPP. As they were moving they were leaving all the progressive behind. By the time they got to
the AD, we didn�t know he wanted to be president.
When they now wanted to choose, he was the deputy chairman of Afenifere, they went to Ibadan, he was not picked
because of this injustice. And since then I decided that I will never be part of this because I knew where they
were heading.
There is this altercation between you and legislators from the South East over the state of the roads there. What
is the situation?
There is no altercation, it was a misrepresentation. I have already written to them. I said I am giving N10.6 billion
to each zone so that we can complete on - going projects.
I believe the Onitsha - Owerri road should be top priority?
Who determines that?
That is a legislative function.
What will you want Lagosians and Nigerians in general to remember you for?
That one person from Lagos State was minister of works that worked. There will be a lot of difference between now
and 2007, by the grace of God.
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